I want my German boyfriend to propose

I am an American (California girl). I met my Hamburger boyfriend (we're both in our late 30's/early 40's - he's a bit younger) a little over a year and a half ago in person at a festival. I was flying home, and he was just coming to America. He called me up a couple of weeks later, from the opposite coast, and we started talking, nightly, for hours at a time, for two weeks. Very quickly, we fell for each other, and we decided that he would come and spend the rest of his time on his visa waiver in California with me (two months).

The time went well, and he went back to Germany. We continued our long-distance relationship for the next year, and then he came back to spend a couple of more months with me. We had really grown close over that last year, via email, phone, chat, etc., and we had discussed him wanting to immigrate to America so we could be together, permanently. He is now trying to wrap up things so he can make the move to the US to be with me and start our lives together, as a couple.

He now is trying to get an H1B visa or the Visa Lottery, which isn't very hopeful. Overall, when we looked at the visa options, the best bet was to get married. However, he said that was "just a free ride" and in addition, he just doesn't want to get married (he's never been married and thinks marriage can ruin a perfectly good relationship). (I also think he is a bit afraid of the idea and is a commitment-phobe of sorts.)

(I read somewhere that Germans have some of the longest, most drawn-out courtships ever. It took over six months for him to call me his girlfriend!)

We are clearly in love, however, and this would not just be a "free ride". It would be a huge commitment on my part, having to sponsor him, but a real expression of our love. I think it is entirely appropriate. He really does love me, and I love him just as much, and both of us definitely want to spend our lives together. He tells me how important I am and being together is to him constantly. He says that I am the only one for him and that I am the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with, just not married.

He says that people just don't get married any more in Germany. Is this true? He says more people than ever just live together. This still doesn't seem that popular here in the US. People get married. I have family members and co-workers that look down on people who just live together. And I'm comfortable with it for a little while, but not forever. And that coupled with the fact that it will be hard for him to ever immigrate without a marriage visa makes marriage seem like the best option.

Any thoughts or ideas out there on this topic?

Is this a joke? Am I on Candid Camera being filmed replying to this post or something?

Sounds like a Mad Lib.

"People in [Germany, France, Belarus] don't get [married, engaged, divorced] anymore they just live [together, down the street, in the same same town]."

Here's an idea. You ask him. Apply some pressure and see his reaction. I bet his answer is worth an all night phone call.

I guess you're saying his answer, if I proposed, would no doubt be "No"? What do you mean, it would be "worth an all night phone call"? I don't believe his answer would take all night.

I think he would consider it. Then again, I think he'd feel a bit demasculinized if I was the one who asked. It's something to think about, though...

Come on if you want to marry a person you take the risk and ask.I did with my wife.After a long distance relationship of 5 months she came over from thr UK and i asked her to marry me after 1 day.She said yes came over to Germany a 4 months after and we have been wed for 18 years now.Living together for 2.So 20 years together.Seems like he wants to have a relationship but does not want to fully commit.

These are your gut feelings talking. Listen to them! If, as you say, you think he's a commitmentphobe, cut to the chase and make him an offer he might refuse. Marry and come to the States, or stay in Germany without you. If he says no, what have you lost? A commitmentphobe? Dime a dozen.

His saying people don't get married anymore in Germany is simply false. Sorry, but I get the impression he doesn't want to marry YOU.

In all fairness, there is more cohabitation in Germany than the US, but I wonder if the two of you really know each other well enough to get married (which is of course a big step). Discuss the issue with him and probe his feelings about marriage some more. Because it is such a big decision, you should not get married unless you are pretty certain it is the right thing to do and that you are both on the same sheet of music with regards to marriage.

A first step before marriage would be to make use of the 90-day tourist visa that you, as an American, can use to come to Germany. From what you write, it doesn't sound like you've been here once. I appreciate that the circumstances are difficult, but maximising the amount of time you can spend together first would seem to make more sense to me than a convenience marriage.

While it is true that people still get married in Germany, the amount of people merely living together, including those with children, has risen dramatically in recent years.

I think it's true that German courtship can stereotypically take much longer than in America. That is not a BAD thing, unless your biological clock is about to explode and you want children. Even still, Germans don't see the need for marriage in that case, like Americans do. I would say don't rush it, enjoy the ride, but to each his/her own... good luck.

He is projecting his unwillingness to commit to you on his countrymen, i.e. talking through his ass. I believe that he loves you but he still wants that little escape route to stay open at all times. Consider seriously if that's the kind of person you want to spend the rest of your life with, married or not.

Kick him into touch and find someone else....

I agree with the last point (and others).

However, maybe you need to cut him some slack. Isn't he already doing enough for you? Making a ton of change for your relationship - coming to the US, presumably giving up a job etc. While *you* will still be in your home country, friends / family around etc.

And now you are asking for more - and something that doesn't sit comfortably on him at this point in time?

How much more do you want *him* to give - whilst your life stays the same, but now with a great man who you are now asking to do one more thing that suits your personal agenda?

One of the things I often hear immigrants saying is that a relationship where they have emigrated to be with a partner who has stayed in their homeland is that it can become one-sided. That person who has not had to make much change keeps demanding that the immigrant partner gives more and more.

Good point, swimmer. I didn't know how to put it without sounding like a mother-in-law.

It certainly is a trait of some German men not to commit to relationships or for that matter to be independent. I know several German male friends in their forties who still live at home with their parents. That being said your situation is a bit more complex.

You want this man to move to the States with you and he has little chance of getting a visa so the logical step if he really loves you as he says would be to get married, get the visa and move to the States, killing three birds with one stone. However, I would say considering his reaction to these suggestions I would say the guy is basically copping out. You have never been to Germany I assume so you do not know what his personal circumstances are (even if he has told you what they are), so you could be just a cosy diversion that he wants to keep on the side.

Put him on the spot, tell him that coming to the States to shag you when he fancies is the only "free ride" in this scenario. If he really loves you he will marry you and commit; if you get a negative, dump him and he can run back to Mummy/Girlfriend (or whatever else).

EDIT: Alternatively tell him you will move to Germany and that will really scare the shit out of him

Fabulous post swimmer.

Mostly what swimmer said.

But also, you're taking a man who you say is a commitment phobe and he's planning to emigrate with you and start a new life. That's really, really not something you can claim is insufficient. Moving into a country where the language isn't yours, you have no job and no friends and you don't know the best takeout to buy when it's late and you're drunk is terrifying, and he's choosing to do it for you. Chasing him around insisting on a ring isn't going to settle his nerves any.

You're talking about marriage as if it's purely a visa concern. I suspect it's far more than that for both of you: you really want to do it, and he maybe isn't so sure. Are you trying to force the issue? And if you are, what's the point? If you're going to stay together forever, then the actual formalising of arrangements becomes only a formality.

Unless you have children, I suppose. Are you accelerating your relationship because that's something you want to do sooner rather than later? I imagine the only thing worse than marrying someone who isn't sure about it is reproducing with them. Best make sure everyone's on the same page before you - or he - does something that requires surgery or litigation to repair.

When I see statements/demands like this concerning a relationship I get that sinking feeling.

me too. WHY?? My sister did the same thing to her British boyfriend (effectively forced marriage)... the poor sap had to shell out incredible amounts of money for her 1.5 carat diamond... and they don't even want kids (so why rush marriage??). We shall see how long it lasts.

My coments were (of course) in part based on my own experience and what other immigrants tell me.

Also, keep perspective. The OP says that "sponsoring him" would be a huge commitment.

Actually, it probably wouldn't. It's nothing / zilch compared to emigrating, moving to a new culture, learning a new language, spending a ton of money on moving, giving up your job, moving away from friends and family, learning a whole new culture, coming up day after day against processes and laws you don't know, learning a new tax and benefits system, the disorentation of a new life and culture etc.

Really. What you consider a "huge commitment" on your part is nothing compared to what he will be doing. Nada. You aren't taking any risk.

A lot of immigrants get this : "but look what I am doing for you" followed by a reference to a seemingly easy, trivial, zero risk thing that the other person is mainly doing for their own personal benefit.

That can get wearing to the immigrant after a while. Trust me on that .

You are correct. The immigrant is always the immigrant - even if its only the move from UK to DE as I did (& seems swimmer also) - & I'm reasonably integrated. I also had advantage of having lived in DE for a couple of year before I met my future wife (even then it took 4 more years...).

Believe me, the culture difference between Germany & US (even California) is HUGE compared with Germany & say the UK... Someone who has not lived outside their own country for a period has problems appreciating that.

Yep. I've only been here a few months, and I am already worn down. haha

My now husband (then acquaintance) moved to the USA from Hamburg, but not really for me. It was to triple his salary.

Amen.

That's a lot of the reason that a great deal of TT traffic consists of exasperated brits telling incredulous americans that life here really isn't so bad. Completely different bases of comparison.

The US is little different regionally: Show a person born and raised in Manhattan a 1/4 acre suburban lawn in New Jersey and it looks like paradise. Show a person raised on a ranch in Montana the same thing and it looks like a prison.

On perhaps a totally irrelevant point, has he considered the pension implications of moving to the US at the age of 40? That's a thought that always strikes me when I see TV programs about middle-aged Germans starting a new life somewhere else. The average German has no pension plan, or very little, and relies mostly on the state - which means that if they go somewhere like the US, they might have trouble ever retiring at all.

Once they're vested, the state pays. Why do you think there are so many Heinzes with 740ils in Florida and Arizona where it's schoen warm? The german government only balks when it gets completely ridiculous ... but note only for welfare recipients under 70. Everything else is fine.


Rolf, I feel your pain!

Seriously, no different than US Social Security recipients moving to Baja California. Or the US HMOs who are starting to encourage people to become medical tourists.

My thought is hang in there and try not to push. He sounds like he's making good efforts to come here on his own steam, and he has visited, kept in touch and things seem to be humming along. He just doesn't want to get married to do so. So let him try for the lottery. IF that doesn't work out, HE will see that, and THEN he may make a decision that marriage may be the way to go, and, why not?, things are still good with you...So, just try to stay cool and give it some time.
Good luck.

I agree with a lot of people here: He has much more to lose than you do, so I don't get why you're itching to seal the deal, so to speak. It seems a bit unfair. And I don't agree that German courtships move especially slowly, when everyone is sure about what they want. Perhaps he DOES want to marry you, but he doesn't want to do it without being sure that emigrating and making this huge change isn't a complete disaster. Maybe you should find a way to match his efforts, to calm yourself a bit, and remind yourself about what he's actually giving up for you.

I know they get something, but in this case if he's been paying in for only less than 20 years, he'd only qualify for half of whatever pittance is paid out by the time he's 65. I think what I meant was that many Germans, even today, give retirement no thought at all. When I taught English I used to raise the topic, and discovered that, despite all the rhetoric about the Rente, the only students who ever thought of making any serious private provision for retirement were those who worked for financial institutions and knew the score. Obviously that's not a good attitude to take to the US or UK.

Sorry for being off track.

As a German, I can confirm what various others on this thread have been writing: It is very common in Germany to cohabit for many years without getting married. However, getting married is not particulary exotic or unusual, and most long-time couples do get married eventually (though very rarely after 1.5 years).

As someone else already pointed out: I find it rather unusual that you never went to visit him in Germany (at least you don't mention it). Surely if he is considering to emigrate to the US, taking a look at his home country for a few weeks would help you to understand his background, no?

You're dead right. They've been brainwashed that a government pension can prop them up. But it's even easier if they move to a place with no state tax and reasonable 6%-ish sales tax (vs. 19% VAT).

I have some 40-something disruptive/goldbricking former employees I've sent off with EUR300,000-ish final payouts and some jealous former co-workers said "wow ... I could retire on that!" I replied "if you can stretch EUR150,000 after-tax for 20 years before you can collect old-age pension that you've only paid into for 20 years max, then you're in better shape than I!" They have no idea .. and magically seem to show up somewhere else after their "gardening leave" once they do the math.

There's no inherent ability to do retirement income math in their DNA. They still view things in 14-monthly salary payments years rather than in terms of annual income. They also appear to view "retirement" as EUR300 per month rent, eating beans out of a can and taking the bus everywhere ... for 40 years!" No kids (that they forgot to have anyway), no enjoyment, no risk of catastrophic healthcare issues. Unreal.

No need to apologize. It's actually the most salient point one can make.

Strange thing, though: The US has a negative savings rate, whereas Germany has a very high savings rate (and the state pension doesn't count as savings, because it's funded as a pay-as-you-go scheme). So if Germans don't save for retirement, who does all the saving? The answer (as far as I can tell) is that many Germans actually do save quite a lot, they just don't necessarily call it "retirement savings".

Yes, Americans are prepared for retirement, they bought houses they could not pay and now the government had to borrow money from the Chinese to pay for them.

Completley agreed on the pay-as-you-go. US SS is the same story. But Germany faces a demographic death spiral that the US and UK do not.

High savings rates indicate a fundamental disbelief in the future. Low savings rates (to a point) indicate the opposite. The real question is what is the efficacy of the velocity of money.

The problem is that, because taxes are so confiscatorially high, Germans are moths to the flame on whatever is "tax-advantaged" ... so their hard-earned savings are plunked into Certifikaten, low-yield insurance contracts, turkish container ship schemes, Hollywood "dumb german money", and demand deposits at spar/landesbanken who've leveraged their AAA government-backed ratings and turned around and "invested" in all the crooked stuff that's blowing up right now.

So, what's better: Give people the freedom to spend or invest the majority money as they see fit, or have half of their income handed over to civil servants who come up with crap like Cargolifter?

The current financial crisis lends creedence to the view that individual retirement direction is risky. But what's the realistic alternative ex- living off the gas fumes of the past?

I'm confused. So you're saying that Americans invest their money much better than Germans do, that's why they don't need to save much?

Umm... private company? You know, with some 70,000 private shareholders and stuff? Like, nothing related to the government, and 70,000 people who freely invested their money rather badly?

I would say- be excited he's offering to move over. You're not losing anything and he's risking all. As I see it- he's losing more than he's gaining. Yes, your life will change you'll have to adapt to living with each other and all else, but that pales in comparison to ditching friends, family, an area you live in, know and like, many of your hobbies until you can get them up and started in the new place, job, etc. If things don't work out youl'l be fine (emotionally hurt, but fine) where as he'll have to re-organize life and sort it out all over since he lifted up his life for you etc.

It's also mighty frustrating when you're contemplating ditching your life for another, losing more than you're gaining, and the person who gets to stay isn't offering to move instead of you (even if you don't take them up on it, it'd be nice to know that they are willing to ditch their lives for you too and it's not just you).
This is not even mentioning the financial cost of him moving, plus savings to live off of until he's back on his feet.

Except that he apparently cannot move unless they get married...

I want to believe in the future, I will start spending all my savings now and I will live with a permanent negative balance in my bank.

oh yeah... despite that he can move without being married (just work on getting a job, visa, etc)
Also, who cares? you can still be excited he's even offering! Nothing is like a buzz kill to offer to move across the Atlantic for someone when they give a fake "yay" and say they're excited, but their actions and further words never say it. Or you try to talk about it to start planning and the response is basically- you're the one moving. just show up.

The more supportive, helpful, encouraging, and excited you are (and show and keep showing even when you don't want to) will help.

Not necessarily ... but because they're taxed at c. 35% vs. c. 50% they have a bigger cushion for periodic 20% market breaks.


But the "privatization" of things like this are right up there with Telekom and Infineon ... never set up for anyone but the original insiders to get liquid and leave individual investors holding the flaming bag of sh*t.

Germany is amazing: "I'm a German CEO who wants an anglo-saxon public company salary and bonus plan, but all my worker bees stay under the Betriebsrat-agreed Tariff Gehalt because we have a social market economy." And when it blows up, I move to Switzerland or Luxembourg with Michael Schumacher ... with no impediments on my free movement back to my house in Germany!

The foregoing is solely my personal opinion.

How is this different from -say- American dot-com-IPOs some years ago?
(Same question applies for German CEOs vs. American CEOs which - on average - still earn at least 5x more)

Cargolifter was never a "state company", and never privatized. It was a fully private company which received some state subsidies, and rather quickly built up a large shareholder base before its bubble exploded.

Now Telekom is a far better example for a company where private shareholders were lured into investing badly.
CEOs extorting their company and fleeing when it blows up isn't exactly specific to Germany.

Most Germans actually don't really save much, especially not in long-term plans. It's the elder generation that has a shitload of values - especially in real estate - saved up, with the younger generations waiting to inherit this.

Wonder what OP will make of this discussion when she comes back...

As a Brit, I agree 100%. Germans have fewer worries about picking up their costs if they are old or out of work - more supportive welfare state etc. That is unless they opted out by being self-employed. That'll probably change though.

So less need to build up assets than, say, Brits. Genberalising but your average Brit in paid employment gets little financial support if that job goes. So get your house paid for, get some cash in the bank. Otherwise, life will be rough. And a 5,000 Eur state pension.

I also agree the point about family dependency. Amazing how many middle-aged Germans live off parents. Often, you only find out when the parent dies and the money supply cuts off. Suddenly that person has no means (they expected an inheritance but of course said parent drained their cash paying for their 50 year old child). Until then, you are none the wiser that the guy swanning round town eating out every night, no cares in the world, is dirt poor.

A heck of a lot of "genteel poverty" here.

Yeah? Take all the illegals and Immigrants out of these countries and you have the same problem. (and that includes Canada)

Nice post from Swimmer about moving to the other's country; I have been through the same thing with working out the relationship and at the end of the day the one that moves over has to dig in their heels about some things.

So I have a few comments to some of the responses, and I will start with this one.

First of all, let me say thank you all very much for taking the time to express your feelings. That is what I asked for, and positive or negative, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

I would like to use a visa waiver to visit him in Germany, but that is not going to be possible. I have been to Germany before, just not since I met him.

Let me explain a little more of the story here.

In fact, he already has a ticket to return here to visit for late November. He really wants to try to stay, but of course, that will not be possible unless he has a visa that will allow him to do so (i.e., an H1B visa, a K1 or K3 visa, etc.) Otherwise, his options are to stay 90 days on a visa waiver, or to get a business or tourist visa, both of which he/we have been considering, so that he can at least stay six months.

I do realize he is giving up very much to be with me. He is, in fact, giving up his apartment, by subleasing it. He has already made a lot of changes in his life, as many of you have stated, such as giving up his way of life, his surroundings, his way of life, etc., I know to come stay with me, even for the five months or so he has been here with me so far.

I DO appreciate this.

However, I am also going to be giving up a lot when we begin our lives together. I have children (teenagers about to move off on their own in a couple of years) and he does not, although we have discussed having children of our own. He works as a software engineering consultant, getting gigs whenever he can, so there is no "job" to give up per se. BTW, I know he is not married or a "momma's boy".

I am a high-level executive with a 20 year career, own a house, have a pretty good income, etc., and so I do have a lot to consider. I would have to not only sponsor him, but I would take a chance, if we get married, that I could potentially suffer financial loss - a chance I am willing to take because I love him.

I don't think it would be a marriage of convenience at all - I love him and he loves me - it is just that he has had issues with marriage since he got "left at the altar" when he was younger.

It's not that I want to rush into marriage, just that I wish he would consider it more seriously, and I just wanted to see if there was anyone out there who could tell me if there was any validity in there maybe being more cohabitation in Germany than in the US, as a general rule.

you're comparing finances to friends, family, a life- something that does not have monetary value?
you can go back to Germany. you can go more than once and go for 90 days within every 180 day period. You have a job so it might not be possible, but this is what makes me sick- people who think they are giving up more when they are keeping their lives. You might suffer financial loss... there's a lot more in life to lose than that and things much worse.

If have a good career than how much financial loss are you foreseeing?

I do not get what you having kids has to do with this. They are teenagers- what are you giving up for this man to live with you? Your kids will still be with you. It'll be an adjustment for them, but you are not loosing them.

Well, you ask some interesting questions. I know this man. He is virtually a loner. He does not have a large circle of friends, or even a small one. In fact, the one good friend he did have, he had a fight with earlier in the year and does not even speak to any longer.

He also does not communicate with his family. It seems as though I am one of the only people he does have a relationship with. He has a few acquaintances, but not a lot of social relationships. Also, like I said, he has no real job or steady source of employment. He does do consulting work, and in fact, it is because of this intense, frequent self-imposed isolation in development where he locks himself in his apartment that he doesn't do much socialization. It is because of this that I believe he will actually be GAINING more, at least socially, coming to the US than he will be losing. In fact, he has made several friends here and keeps in touch with them overseas.

And, yes, I have a very demanding, VP level job. I can take a few weeks' vacation, but not 90 days. I would love to visit him, but actually he has insisted that HE does all the visiting. In fact, since he is giving up his apartment, there won't be anywhere to visit now.

Our lives will both change, but we are both gaining a lot, not losing. We are in love, and I am NOT asking him to give up things he doesn't want to freely do, other than simply consider marriage as an option.

Thanks.

Hi Swan, to shorten your name to a user friendly version. Can you sponsor him without marrying him? I really don't know if the US does this for couples! (Like samenwonen in Holland--probably similar word in German?) Anyway, that way you may be able to protect your income, if you live together less than five years. And that way he could have the long German courtship that he's used to, and you don't have the anxiety of losing your savings if you break up, by not being married and living together less than five years. However, I touch wood, and wish you a very long relationship!

Yes, cohabitation is more common in Germany than the US. I suggest having him find some way to get a student visa and come to live in the US that way. Getting married at this juncture seems a leap too high.

Good luck...