Sunday shopping in Germany

There has been talk about having the shop hours increased during the World Cup next year. 24 hour opening times (if wanted) and 7 days a week. It's still being discussed/fought. At the moment, it looks less likely, but it still could happen.

Everybody got a gris-gris.


Germans are rather efficient when the calculations take into account the fact that Germans work, on average, 20 days fewer than their counterparts in the US and UK. That's almost an entire work month.

Just because you want Sundays free is no justification for forcing me to stay home. And why do only retail workers have this "protection"? By your argument you should support closing everything on Sundays. No restaurants, no bars, no trains, no service stations, nothing.

No one is being forced to work Sundays. It may be that certain jobs are only available to people who are willing to work Sundays, but they can always look for other jobs without such a requirement. If you want to work at a bakery, you'll have to get up at 4:00a.m. That's not discrimination, either.


How about you back up that "fact" with some proof? It sure as hell doesn't make me happy. I don't have a family to spend time with. I do have hobbies and work for which I need to go to the stores which are inevitably closed during the little free time I have.

Stores aren't open when I go to work in the morning and they're closed by the time I get home. I'm less productive if I need some electronic components because I have to take an hour's ride back to the city, walk around and conduct business for an hour, then take another hour's ride back to Ismaning, all in the middle of my workday.


No, but it does make for €(X+Y) / 7 days, where Y is a positive number. You're spouting the same baseless assertions that the EHV and others did when Saturday shopping hours were extended and again when daily hours were extended to 8pm. The fact was that sales did increase by a significant factor. Those stores which saw no benefit didn't change their hours. They don't stay open because they have to; they do it because it's profitable.


So did Americans and British. They also abolished those useless laws. The laws here were also designed to protect the "nuclear family" -- a fantasy these days. Both parents work full-time in dual-parent households; there's no more housewife to run around ad take care of the shopping while hubby's at work. That system worked fine 50 years ago, too, but not many women want to or can afford to give up their careers.

Next up:


The paper-pusher straw man? Burnt. It's no harder to open a business here than it is in New York City. Getting all your licenses and paperwork is generally faster here. Voice of experience.

Where do people keep coming up with Germans being unproductive? Most of these studies come from the States and neither the general healthcare nor social safety net are taken into account; only the average per capita gross earnings as reported to the IRS. Apples and Oranges, folks.

And finally (because I have to get some work done today):

Not everyone is in a family. In fact, the majority of people do not live in these ideal family units. If you don't like the traffic, move somewhere else. No one's forcing you to live near high-traffic streets.

There was an old woman in Schwabing walking around a few years asking everyone to sign her petition to close bars & restaurants earlier, especially on weekends because of all the noise. My friend pointed out to her that Schwabing has long been a center of Munich nightlife, that the woman must have known this when she moved there (which she confirmed) and told her that she had no business moving in and expecting the rest of the community to change for her sake.

How dare you decide that I have to live a certain way because you do! How dare you expect me to share your ideals!

And how dare you present your pet financial hypotheses without ever having learned economics. it's the "mighty dollar" that made becoming energy-efficient possible. It made your computer and the Internet and your E-Mail possible. It made that free time you cherish so much possible.

Only 100 years ago the average work week was 12-14 hours a day, 6 days a week. It isn't so anymore. Capitalism made that possible. Welcome to the real world. I want to be able to make purchases at a time which is convenient to me and I'm not the only one. There are people who are willing to work at those times, often because they'll be paid extra for working such hours and days. These transactions benefit all and should occur according to any economic theory. They would except for unnatural externalities in the forms of old-fashioned laws which no longer serve the purposes they were designed to do (get 'em in church and protect them from over-burdening bosses). You're welcome to read my thesis if you like.

woof.

where i said i knew people sneaking into work on sundays to finish work and projects off on time, there german counterparts were often behind in work and got really pissed off with the english workers getting it done before them. not all of germany and germans are efficient even trains breakdown in germany!!!

They don't derail as they do in Blighty and they not only run a regular schedule but manage to usually arrive on-time, something neither UK nor US trains can do. Compared to almost all other national railways, Germany's is one of the most efficient.

woof.

so that ICE derailment in Eschede was a myth then? a story made up by the tabloids to sell papers?

Germans are efficient? I have to say having worked for 2 different companies that I have never seen such inefficient workers as I have in Germany. There is a big difference between lazy and efficient.

While the Germans in my experience are not lazy (when they are at work and not sick or on holiday) they have absolutely no idea how to get anything done. I am convinced with better management and a few competent staff we could survive with half the workforce.

This may not help unemployment but streamlined workforce=more profit=more expansion=more employees.

And yes I am for opening the shops on Sundays. If I want to live in the 1920's I'll build a time machine.

Absolutely right. I would also have a hell of a time opening a business in NYC.

I assume you are speaking as a permanent resident of Germany with a full work permit and a US passport. Nice privileged position from which to preach...

*huge round of applause*

Isn't your request for Germany to open stores on Sunday the same argument that the woman in Schwabing uses? She moved to Schwabing, as you moved to Germany. She knew that this was a pub district, you knew that the stores would be closed. She wanted to change this fact as it would make her life a bit easier, as you would like to have stores open on Sundays would make your life easier?

Personally, I do not agree that because something was a certain way, that it should remain that way. I also like that the stores are closed on Sunday. I am also single and work from 8-19 during the week. It is difficult for me, but I have adjusted to the store hours. I enjoy walking in the parks on a Sunday and seeing families walking around enjoying the slow paced day. I know from my experience that a Sunday in the US, you would make a couple trips to pick up some things at a store, or run to the grocery store to pick up the eggs that you forgot the day before, pretty soon the whole Sunday was "eaten" up by these short trips, not because they were necessary, but because you could do them.

Here in Germany, they have a balance on capitalism which sees the benefit that it offers, but also the problems that uncontrolled capitalism can have. It protects the families and the individual, however if enough people organise together they can effect a change and open the stores on a Sunday...which I believe would be for the worse. Sometimes there is more to life than money.

I own a bar and for me the lack of Sunday opening is a right pain in the arse - especially when we first opened and weren't always able to judge weekend demand.

Even now, we limit the amount of fresh produce we buy because we don't want it to go off. If there's a particularly high demand for salad on Friday and Saturday night, we may end up short on the Sunday. Try getting something as simple as lettuce and tomatoes, or mince meat to make meat pies out of on a Sunday and you'll know what I mean. If there's a public holiday somewhere nearby - a Monday for example and it makes it even worse.

We're open on Sundays. There is no great problem getting staff to work. Same with public holidays. In fact there are people who's preferred day to work is on Sunday.

It makes no sense to me that our customers expect us to be open on Sundays and public holidays, yet the Tenglemann and the Getränkemarkt are prohibited from doing so. What's the difference? Dad sitting in the pub getting hammered isn't going to be spending the day with his family either...Nobody's stopping people from going for a walk in the park or staying at home. People will spend their time as they see fit and a lack of Sunday trading can't force people to be more family minded.

If you really want to make sure that retailers get their day off, then why not force supermarkets and shops to close for 1 day a week, but allow them to choose which day. I bet not one of them will choose Sunday, and most places will be closed on one day between Monday and Wednesday. But you could still go out and buy what you needed, when you needed it.

It must have something to do with the fcuking unions or something. Germans are just frightened about going to hell if they even think about working on a Sunday. Or they are just a bunch of work-shy bureaucrats.

Let the stores make up their own mind. If they want to open up and pay their staff double time on a Sunday then let them. You cannot force anyone to work on a Sunday and in the UK, most of the weekend supermarket personell are students looking to earn a bit of extra cash.. The regular Monday to Saturday staff can have their rest day as normal.

Hardly preaching. All countries make it more difficult for foreigners to open a business. Yes, I'm a resident and have full, unrestricted residence and work permits, so no, I don't have as many hoops to jump through. I have more to jump through in the US and I'm a US citizen. You, as a foreigner in both countries, have more hoops to jump through, problems I expect I'd face in trying to establish a company in Canada.


No. That's a fallacious argument From spurious similarity, and the point about unchecked capitalism is a red herring. The Arbeitszeitordnung (AZO) already protects workers from excessive hours and poor treatment, and provides for required additional pay if working hours occur nights, weekends, and holidays.

Schwabing evolved into a party zone. No surprise being near the Uni. It's been that way for a long time. That woman is free to move to any of the other quieter areas in Munich. The The Ladenschlussgesetz doesn't define an area -- it's a restriction based on out-moded ideas (nuclear family, worker protection) which, as currently implemented, hurts those it supposedly ought to help, namely small businesses. There is no way to avoid it other than moving to Berlin (only a partial measure), something few people can just up and do.

The Rabattgesetz is gone now so no small store can compete with a large chain on price. They can only compete in service, as I explained in my earlier post (#40). The current law is both a burden to those with jobs and long commute times and it's helping put small firms out of business.

The entirety of the law with all its exceptions is absurd. Work shouldn't be done on Sundays... except for restaurants, bars, hotels, all transportation, hospitals, factories which can't stop production (brick factories, steel works, refineries), trade fairs, special marketplaces, anyone who gets a permit, etc. Along with these, anyone who works in the capacity of supporting them can and does work Sunday. When do you think your Monday newspaper was written? Hint: not Saturday. Where do the restaurants get their bread? Bakeries can be open Sunday.

It's an unjust law and a burden to too many people.

woof.

I think its hilarious that I can get drunk or visit a brothel on a sunday, but cannot buy a bag of compost for my garden.

Not only is that hilarious, but it is right and proper Don...right and proper.

Ok, lets ruffle some feathers here.

People in Europe, in my humble, not-overly-experienced opinion do not work much at all. Aren't the Frenchy's now only expected to work 35 hours a week? Lazy pricks. Fair enough the shops do stay open what, until 8pm here? Thats good, but Sunday is one of the few days people get to actually go shopping each month. Public holidays are the same. It seems nobody wants to work here either - just have a look at everyone's best friends at the bloody KVR. I'd hate to think how much coin they travel home with each night after working a solid what, 20 hours a week? Gone are the days where you wouldn't look at the clock to see when to knock off, but you'd work and work and work until your work was done, not until the unionist said you could go home.

Actually, until someone proves me otherwise, I will go by the statement that although the working week is something like 38 hours in Germany, Germans have one of the highest amounts of overtime hours per employee out of all of Europe. The idea that they all only work their set hours is a total myth.

Yeah, I'd love work days to be based upon finishing your work, rather than simply being present for x hours a day. Makes more sense to me. Never seems to be like that though - every contract you sign mentions that although your hours are x a week, you may have to work more than that "if required". I perfectly understand that notion, but it never states in your contract "can fuck off home if you are particularly gifted and can bang out your work in less time".

I am from the U.K. and enjoy quiet, family oriented Sundays here in Germany. However, I do get pissed off at having to pay 3 times the odds for a litre of bloody milk/other basic foodstuffs at a Tankestelle if I forget to stock up on saturday.

Also makes it impossible to have a spur of the moment barbecue on a Sunday in Summer unless you head out to the Airport quickly beforehand...

You are of course assuming Hazza that its legal to have a spur of the moment barbeque. Bound to be a law preventing either barbeques (or spontaneous thoughts) somewhere...

Even better would be to have one day a week where the shops are open, say saturday, and the other 6 days a week the shops are closed like on sunday.

Or are you all so addicted to shopping that you need to go every day?

Not humble, not experienced and definitely not correct. France tried to go to the 32-hour week not because the workers were lazy but to increase overall employment and social benefit of more free time. They've admitted it doesn't work and upped the legal work week back to 38 hours again. Do try and keep up.

The Unions here screamed for the 37.5 hour work week and two weeks before it became law they already had their new logo of the sun encircling a "35" instead of "37.5" and neither ver.di nor IGM have realised the fucking harsh realities of the current marketplace. They, more than any other group, are responsible for a lot of the pain and problems. And they're also screaming to keep the LadenschlußG. Of course, they represent big companies who it benefits.


However, 40 hours is maximum working week. in Germany. Any more and you must be compesated, either with equivalent time off or with money. That goes for salaried people, too. Furthermore, the AZO sets a firm limit of 50 hours per week maximum. It's illegal to do more (with a few exceptions, none of which affect most office workers).

And Kza? You're not even trying. If you want to troll you could at least put a little effort into it. That was really weak.

woof.

@Kza

not particularly, but my business appears to be...

@baddoggie

Nice comments. I've been a bit busy working though to stop and read the France Employment Times, but next time I'll be a bit more careful, ok?

I am a "comitalist"? Actually, I am a progressive.


There are still blue laws in the states.

I do see a future of where stores are open till 9 or 10 and that is probably not too far off. There may also be short operating hours allowed on Sundays a few more years down the road. That is how it started in the states. Stores opened after church and closed before dinner time (12-4). 20 odd years later and it is 24/7 and mom and pop stores are virtually extinct. Runaway captilism is a bad thing.


Thats just not right as the data isn't even out yet. The only thing that you could say is that money got shifted. Those people would have gone to store x as always, but went to store z this time because it was open longer.

For actual data on the overall analysis, it will need a two year timeframe to show any kind of long term change. Otherwise it would be like trying to compare shopping on a normal weekend versus shopping on a weekend where Monday is a holiday. The people go frigging nuts! I would imagine that the overall German spending may have gone up Y (pos, but barely), but that the cost of extended hours is much lower than the cost of extended days which would end up making Y neg or not worth the bother.

Remember, the US and other Western counties are in a mess right now with debt. Comsumer debt is very high and people are not saving money for retirement. German's save money and many in the States would like Americans to take note and start saving more. You cannot spend your way out of debt.

Here's some German opinion on the matter (in German):
http://forum.tagesschau.de/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Oh look at me. I don't want to go shopping on Sundays so I'm going to make buttons to put a stop to it. I think sunday should be family time in the frikkin' park even though this is Germany and it rains every frikkin' weekend. La la la.
Why is it that the four times a year when the innenstadt here (Gütersloh) is open on Sunday, the place is paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacked? I mean full full full. For a bunch of people who don't want to shop on Sundays, they sure come out to the shops on Sundays with great zeal.
Stupid churchies. Go sit in your pews all day and let the rest of us wash our cars and paint our fences and shop on Sundays.

I've come to accept that Germany isn't going to have shopping conveniences like we know in other countries any time soon.

However, if we were to amuse ourselves a bit, maybe they could at least have food-shopping open on Sundays...

I have come to accept the fact that the Germans are here to inconvenience us in all aspects of our lives and not just shopping


And this is one of the prime reasons why Germany is so f****d up at the moment. They realise they have a problem but they are not willing to get off their fat arses and do something about it. Instead they consult their union handbook, demand more money and are surprised when the company they work for goes bankrupt.

Now. If one of my colleagues came to me and asked to be compensated because they worked 43 hours then I would not look on it too favourably. OK, so I cannot force them to do the extra work but I am just stunned at the appalling work ethic over here. I do not expect them to work an unfair amount of hours but they should be willing to give that little extra as and when required. Lazy b******s

I'm glad you made those points, but lets put it in this perspective. Does two wrongs make a right? Just because Restaurants , and other business's are open on Sundays it does not mean that retail stores should also be open. I would support restaurants, casino's,taverns etc to be closed on Sunday. These are not essential services. However you can not compare a hospital to a retail store. Some of them on this discussion board are doing that? Come on !! Comparing a can of corn to a human life. Hospitals are an essential service, retail stores are not essential. We won't die from not being able to buy that can of corn on a Sunday. If I were a guest in germany I would appaud there decision for not being a Monkey see Monkey do society.

Its nice to see you are so caring about people and that you expect them to be there 24/7 just to serve you. Heck , i guess all retail workers should forget there families just to wait on you. You are the one ...HOW dare you take the only day away that mothers can spend with there kids.! How dare you take the only day where there is less traffic and pollution away from us. You have a problem , with all those others in the world that feel we need stores open day and night. No wonder we have the problems that we do to day. Stores in my prov of Nova Scotia are open six days and six nights ,plus some stores are open 24 hrs. And guess what??? They still are not satisfied! I mean come on enough is enough. And sure there are things open on Sunday BUT people TWO wrongs do not make a right. These other things should have to close as well. But why i'm at it if it is ok for stores to open why not government, municipal offices, banks, schools, dentist offices, open everything 24/7 . Why discriminate against retail?, include everything. I feel that retail is being treated like third class. Sad to think that people are that addicted to stores that want to be in them around the clock. SAD real sad when people do not think about other people rather than there own selfish needs. Germany say no and keep saying No. Don't jump over a bridge because other people have . Be leaders and NOT followers.

@sos- you don't even live here! so why are you getting so worked up about an issue that doesn't involve you? Using your words 'How Dare You'

@sos


Glad you're not in charge of deciding this...

I have plenty of people who WANT to work on Sundays. Yes, as hard as it may be to understand. They are actually willing to work on God's own day of rest. Crazy, I know, but true.

Maybe you can explain the two wrongs not making a right comment. There are people who want to work on Sundays and there are customers who want to drink at my bar on Sundays. What's wrong with that?

Who are you to tell them that they shouldn't?

And who are you to tell me when I should and should not trade?

If you don't wanna go out on a Sunday, then don't. Stay at home, go to the park (but no beergardens), watch TV - Actually maybe TV should be off on Sundays too. So stay home, wank, whatever, but don't tell me when I should or should not open my business...

Canandian mercaneries. Not much to do uo north.

Though people will use any excuse to sling mud at the church, the issue today is the trade unions and a country which tries very hard not to be too consumeristic, seemingly more out of obstinate "idealism" than actual common sense.

Germans love to bitch that everything is falling apart but any changes which might make their precious socialist system just a touch more competitive and it's automatically branded as heresy.

In a country like Italy, which is stereotypically considered bureaucratic, very Catholic, lazy and has rigid labor laws, supermarkets and malls (and we're talking about big ones, not these chickenshit Mini Mals you get here) are open all day even in small towns on Sundays.

Go figure.

Not to worry sos is not worked up but just expressing my opinion. We are a group opposed to Sunday shopping world -wide. You should be enjoying Sundays with stores being closed.. You are unique.

So where are the people wanting to work on Sunday? I do not see any line ups! Come on ... they used that same excuse here to open up stores. No one wants to work and if it are there are a select few that are willing to work. Your'e bar should be closed on Sunday as well. If we went by your'e argument we could drive on the wrong side of the road . not pay any taxes.. do what ever we wanted to. Heck why not run around in the nude? There are laws for a reason and it's to give retail staff a day home with there families. You won't die or starve because stores are closed one day a week. Your'e comment by doing away with TV makes me laugh .Do you make that same comment to those who work in government offices that are off Sat and Sunday? Do you look at the schools that are off sat and Sunday and use that same argument? It is not hard to see that retail is being discriminated against. Our world has become to commericalized we need to start putting our families first and start thinking about our environment. The traffic that will be on the roads with another day of shopping, plus the pollution. Not to mentioning the lights being on in these stores sevens days a week. No wonder prices are going up all the time.

Ummm...people DO do that here

Dude, what a load of arse. I wanted to work saturdays and sundays when I was at university. It's all fine and dandy for you to say "spend time with your families" etc on sundays assuming you work a regular working week. When I was studying, without my sunday job I couldn't even afford to go and see my family or do anything else for that matter. How would this be better for someone in my situation? There are plenty of people willing to work on a sunday, no question about it. pull your head out mate.

Some of us work for Governments and do not pay taxes either!
And we run around in the nude too!
In fact, Munich is quite a centre for naked civil servant non-taxpayers!
Have you ever actually left Nova Scotia? Because, leaving the subject of Sunday trading aside, you don't seem to really understand the local culture here (public nude sunbathing is permitted in civic parks for example and in the UK we do drive on the other side of the road...).

In Germany there is excellent, well-used, relatively cheap public transport and the use of catalytic convertors and high gasoline taxation meaning that shopping-related pollution is pretty low. You'd be best looking at other countries for that argument.
PS I also paid for my university education by working Sundays.

Class.


Class.

Wanking on a Sunday? Now THAT is disgusting.

Actually mate, you are fucking right now I think about it. Alright, mornings are all the same to a go as you likey such as I, but weekends, she hasn't got to get up and go to work, so bollocks if I'm wasting my own elbow grease.

Bet the term "elbow grease" has now just taken on a totally new connotation for many of you. Prago.

forget it

@sos

So what happens to those people who work and don't have time to shop on a Saturday. Fine they can get a takeaway or go for a meal if they haven't got anything to eat at home. But in your world all the bars and restaurants are shut as well.

What should they do - knock on their neighbours door and ask for dinner? Eat the dog? Mind you if you wanted to cook the whole city Sunday dinner every week I daresay people would have much less of a problem with Sunday opening.

Why should I work on Sundays if I don't work the rest of the week?
Oh what's that noise?
My boss getting into the lift, that's what.
I'm off in a sec then lallalalalaaaaaaaaaa

My good friend Mrs Sumyung-gai does just that. Kreema, as we call her, says it tastes just like fried chicken.

i think it's ace that the shops are closed on sundays. i think its a downer if you have to work during the rest of the week, so maybe they could have a rota-schedule or something. but i like the way sunday is different to the rest of the week.

or does that go in "unpopular opinions"?

No there is not people that want to work on Sundays, only a select few. If that was the case you would have Sunday shopping if so many are willing to work. You need to start thinking about other people that want to see there famiies. We will not starve or die if stores are closed one day a week..


I sure would love to see some of you naked non paying tax payers. Well thats a crime not having to pay tax. Talking about culture from what I have heard the Germany people are deeply opposed to Sunday shopping. It's like somerthing that is sacred to the people. Something that should never be touched. Sure i will be the first to admit i do not know everything about germany, but i have meet germans that come here every summer. Alot of them are opposed to Sunday shopping and are very happy that we said no to it. Western Australia recently had a referendum on Sunday shopping and week -night shopping they said NO to both. http://saveoursundays.tripod.com/WesternAustralia.htm
you can also pay for your'e university by working Monday to Sat. Alot of students here like having not to work on Sunday so they can do there studying on Sundays.I do not see the line ups of people wanting to work on Sunday by any means.

So what happens to the people that can not get there car fixed on Sunday? Or what happens to the people who can not go to a government office, dentist office on a Sunday? they go Monday ,tues,wed ,thurs, fri or sat. Using having no time is a big excuse that is only used when it comes to Sunday trading and nothing else. Funny how people find time for services only offered Monday to Friday YET they can not get there shopping done with stores open six days a week. I will tell you what to do it is called Time Management... you know stores are closed on Sunday buy your'e groceries on Monday or Friday, Plan ahead... and if you have so much money to spend from your'e secret bank account ,hire someone to do your'e shopping and create another job. There are always ways to get it all done.