Winter and summer tyres - the legalities

accordign to the scientists that work for the tyre companies there is. Of course, it'll be different from tyre to tyre but the principle is the same. There will be a temperature where the grip provided by the summer tyres detiorates below the grip of the winter tyres. Yes, you are right in saying that there is a gradual change in efficiency but there is a point where the graph lines cross. Now, as we all know the weather just doesn't turn a switch and go from warm to cold, so the industry gives a guideline for the tyres. They say that if the weather drops persistantly below 7 degrees C then it is time to change. This means that for a certain length of time your tyres will be operating in the "Grenzbereich", ie the margin of minimum efficiency. For the week(s) before and after the tyre change where the weather is still jumping around temperature wise, it is recommended to be extra carefull, especially when judging stopping distances, since these will be greatly impaired.

If you driving on winter tyres in warmer weather, the softewr compound will become "sticky" and wear off quicker. Also the compound starts to underperform so grip, which of course, effects stopping distance and cornering will be an issue. Driving carefully and well within the limits will minimise any risks, though. think it is certainly better to change a week or two early than a week or two late and end up driving in snow/sleet on summer tyres.

Thanks everyone ... guess i will carry on as normal. Just cant believe the change was so soon.. roll on winter..

most people change towards the end of October, latest should be beginning of November here in Munich, if you go by past winters. Many people (most?) wait too late and only think of making an appointment to change their tyres after the first snowfall, then they wonder why they can't get an appointment. You are safer having changed early than too late and have avoided the big rush and long waiting times.

edit: btw, this thread popping up again has reminded me make an appointment to have my tyres fitted, which i have just done, for the 26th of October. So here's hoping it doesn't snow or get really cold before then!

Why don't they just do all year tires here?

as already discussed, the indusry (especially the motoring press) here in Germany looks down on all-weather tyres. They are seen as a bad compromise and perform optimally in neither summer nor winter. Probably around now they are ok, but in any types of extreme they are lacking.

Having said that, I used to have them when i lived in Switzerland and had no problems.

yup, changing mine next week, so better go and justify it by taking them to hintertux for a pre-season warm up.

I read on the German videotext tonight that starting early next year it will be compulsory to have winter tires on your car under winter conditions. If not, you can/will be fined €20. The law is expected to be ratified in December. (ARD videotext page 541)

I stacked my car last year during a blizzard at around 30 kmh. First question the insurance company asked the repairers and me was "did you have winter tyres on?" so I would definately buy winter tyres and if you have a rear wheel drive car, chuck a couple of large paving slabs in the boot for extra weight on the rear axle...oh, and dont go too fast!!!

Not sure about it being compulsory, but any accident in winter conditions without winter tyres is considered as contributory neglegence, both by the police and the insurance. Some mountain roads only permit drivers with winter tyres (and sometimes, chains) in the winter...

This is the report from yesterdays Bayern 5 news.
Winter Tyres

They didn't make snow tyres in winter compulsory b/c they couldn't agree on a definition of 'Winter'. This new law probably won't change a lot. Much of Germany rarely has the streets covered w/ snow for more than perhaps for a day or two throughout the entire winter. For that, it doesn't really make sense to make people mount snow tyres, esp. not for the entire season. Although I have snow tyres on my car I hate them: the car's performance is so much poorer with them (unless of course it's one of those rare days where there's snow on the streets). I was shocked to see how much longer I need to brake the car down from high speed, I have to take curves so slow it's boring, and in rain aquaplaning becomes a real issue. Nonetheless I always put them on, since I'm unable to move the car at all on snow with summer tyres. I once tried it and it felt like the front wheels weren't even turning, the were just being shoved over the snow, i.e. zero response to the steering.

I am confused, as that sounds contradictory - winter tyres are bad in the rain (aquaplaning)? Why is this? Winter = precipitation of the wet kind, whether snow or rain. So what's the point?

You tell me. Winter tyres give you more grip on snow, that's all. Plus they are supposed to have better grip in cold weather altogether, but I can't confirm: I can make the wheels spin with the winter tyres on a dry road - and I have automatic transmission.

Yeah you keep hearing the rumour that winter tires are not just better in the snow, but in lower temperatures in general. There might be some scientific way of justifying that, but anyone thats actually driven knows that summer tires are almost always better unless theres a solid layer of snow on the road.

I can tell you that summer tires have more grip in hot weather than winter tires have in cold weather. I can't tell you that summer tires have more grip in cold wether than winter tires have in cold weather, as I've always changed my tires because of snow.

Have you driven comparable winter tires and summer tires on the same car at let's say -5 degrees?

Yes

A few years ago one of the German magazines did a test of summer tyres against winter tyres, in winter conditions, i.e. cold and wet, not just snow, and the snow tyres outperformed the summer tyres in every way except I think, road noise.

Indeed, the topic "Winterreifen" has turned into one of those modern German crusades. Every TV show about cars/driving will repeatedly state how important it is to have them, then come up with tests of 'high-esteem' automobile clubs such as AVD, ADAC etc that back them. Suddenly there is a hype, and it is deemed essential that everyone must have them, though of course winters today are no different than 10 or 20 years ago, and if you look at the practical facts people in most regions would almost always be better off without them. Laughable how those TV shows boast cars in their tests, one with winter tyres, the other with summer tyres, but always somewhere in Scandinavia where there is a solid layer of snow on the road – of course in conditions like that winter tyres are much safer/better, you don't need a test to demonstrate/prove the bleedin' obvious. It's just that most of Germany hardly ever has conditions as in Scandinavia.

They are better on snow, with RWD even essential. Anywhere else, summer tyres are better or equally good. It is true that summer tyres have less grip in cold weather even on a dry street, but in my experience so do winter tyres have less grip. I have top class tyres, summer Goodyear Eagle F1, and winter I have tried Pirellli Snowsport, Uniroyal MS Plus and currently have Vredestein Wintrac Extreme – all "High Performance" winter tyres w/ speed index V, but it takes a lot of guts to go the 240kph with them that you're technically allowed.

seriously disagree with you oli on that point. and so do most insurance companies here. in munich winter tyres are essential unless you only ever drive your car like once a week to walmart.

That's why I have them. Wasn't talking about Munich.

sorry, me and car safety eh! winter tyres probably helped in oscars escapade with a bmw. i get a little jumpy when i read people saying "na its ok use summer tyres". apologies.

!kcits eht fo dne gnorw

I want to buy used tires. Can anyone tell me how much profile is needed or how much profile should at least be on tires ?

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By law a minimum of 1.6mm is required, in practical terms though you'll need at least 4mm on winter tyres if they're supposed to fulfill the function of "winter tyre".

If you are looking for a cheap alternative to new winter tyres, ask about re-moulded tyres, not sure what the German is for it.

The German word is "Runderneuert", but I call them kamikaze tyres - seriously, those things should be made illegal. Long time ago I had a set and a tyre broke completely apart on the autobahn, and I've heard similar stories about them. They're widespread and probably ok for commercial vehicles that don't go above 80kph, but I don't recommend putting them on a standard car.

Hi Natasa, I can give you 4 tyres free. They're Continental Winter Contact 195/65R15 with 4mm tread left - see the 'Items for free' section where I'm giving these away, and another set -
Winter tyres for free. There's also some detail about tyres. Also consider the age of the tyres, not just the tread depth - the rubber hardens after a few years and is less effective although there's no legal requirement for this. If you expect to do a lot of driving on snow then buy new ones.

And also the point is the roads are not uniform - it doesn't take many feet of icy road to seriously spoil your weekend trip to the hills...

3.5 hours it took on Saturday to get new winter tyres on the car! Of course it was the day after the first snowfall of this winter.. oh well.

I know I've got to get some winter tyres for the Astra I brought over from the UK...

I've seen a few sets second hand for sale in Kurtz & Fündig, and was wondering if anyone could tell me what the numbers / sizes are all about and maybe what I should be looking for. I've seen ads for tyres for Opel Astra with a variety of sizes, eg 155/80, 175/70 etc.

What should I go for, for occasional weekend trips to the hills, etc. Thanks, Jol

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155 and 175 are the widths of the tires in mm. 80 and 70 are the height of
the tire flank as a percentage of the width, i.e. .8 x 155 = 124mm, .7 x 175 = 122mm.
The height always has to be (approximately) equal, because this determines the
overall size of the wheel. (And the speedometer depends on the size of the wheel.)

There should also be a third number that gives the size of the wheel rim in inches (!).
The easiest way to find out which tires you can use with your car is to look in to the
"Fahrzeugschein", in the German version of the car's registration papers there is a
list of possible tire sizes. Maybe you can find a car that is the same model as yours
and look into their papers ...

This could pose a problem. All German registered cars actually specify the tyre and rim sizes allowed in the registration paperwork ("Fahrzeugschein"). Such information is not included on English paperwork. Some tyre fitters won't even supply rims or tyres before they have had sight of the Fahrzeigschein (as even for different models/ages of the same model differing sizes may be permitted). Of course, if your UK vehicle has been re-registered over here, then you should have the necessary information on the German paperwork.

A pretty safe bet would be to examine the current tyres and find winter tyres (and maybe rims) of similar size to buy.

YL6

So does that mean I need the same size exactly? I guess I was thinking that if the tyre is still on a wheel rim taken from an Astra, then it would be fine just to plonk it on mine...am I missing something?!

I purchased winter tyres and rims at ATU in Landshut. As the "rims" I chose were not approved by the manufacturer ATU gave me a large E.U document that states the rims a perfectly legal, safe etc though not approved by the manufacturer. Apparently the E.U law overrides the manufacturers "approved list" as the E.U believes that the manufacturers are using the "approved" list as a way of ensuring that you only purchase their products?! I can dig out the document later. I carry it in my glove compartment...just in case. Proof of the pudding I guess is that I had a 30kmh, minor prang and the insurance company checked that I had winter tyres, checked the aforementioned document and paid out with no further ado!!

I believe there's a difference between 'manufacturer's reccomended' and what the TUV says are OK. AFAIK there's no higher law than the TUV in Germany.

The Almighty TUV - when I wanted to upgrade to 17" wheels on my S40, even though Volvo said it was ok, I was going to have to pay for TUV to bless them. The Volvo dealer talked me out of it. Amazing - a dealer parts manager talking a silly little American chick out of a 1300 Euro purchase and into putting longer-lasting summers on the 15" rims she already owned...

As for snow tires, I live in the sticks (Oberpfalz - Regensburg is "the big city"). My little dorf doesn't get plowed until the second day after a heavy snowfall sometimes, and I've had to drive the really scary two-lane state road on a few inches of packed snow. That's the main reason I switch between summers and winters. The other is that I drove 50,000 km in the past year and like to drive fast on the Autobahn in good weather.

If I lived in Munich (or Nuernberg or Regensburg) and did not HAVE to drive to work not matter how bad the weather was, I'd do all-seasons, maybe. They worked well enough on this car in Maryland, even in the snow. The dedicated snow tires have performed better, though.

I'd forgotten how bad the gas mileage is with the winters, though. I was getting about 28 mpg overall on the summers - now, it's under 25.

i haven't skimmed back through the thread to see if someone has already given this information but I'Ll give you a quick summary of the info you need.

Everything YL6 has stated is spot on. The wheel combos (rims/tyres) differ from model to model. a 1.4 litre Astra might have different permissable wheel combos to a 2.0 litre Astra. This is because different models have different break sizes and other technical differences which means not all wheels will fit. Whilst you may be able to fit more than one size, you might not be able to fit all wheel sizes.

This is our first winter in NRW, and I have heard that snow tires are required by law now, or else fines may result. (Our situation is a bit complex as we are borrowing a car from Belgium part of the time, and snow tires are not required there.)

Is this really required of all cars? Can anyone recommend a good place to get tires and get them installed in or around Duesseldorf, NRW? Thanks!

(Sorry for all of the alternative spellings, I just discovered the UK spells them with a "y"!)

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Please look here (Sixt offering winter tires) for more information on rental cars.

Just changed to winter tyres this week but interestingly enough for my car I can have 2 types of winter tyre. The H (210km) rated are onlyy 225x45 whereas I can put V rated 240x45 on instead but the dealer suggested I didn't as these are a harder compound and so not as effective in snow. I also had to buy a whole new set of rims as I can't get steel wheels for the car and it needs special wheels.

Havinf driven a lot of miles in snow and ice and in both winter and non-winter tyres I can really recommend changing. The only downpoint, for me at least, is come spring I keep getting overtaken by little cars as I have to set my limiter to 210km.

I am really confused now with this winter tyre "rule"... I've heard now that it's not the law to have winter tyres, but if you get pulled over, you might get a 20 or 40 euro fine. And if you're in an accident, whether it's your own fault or not, the insurance company might not pay out.

That means, when you're going into Germany with summer tyres, you're f*cked anyhow if something happens...?

I understand that the law changed this year, hence you will be fined if controlled and found not to have winter tyres when the conditions dictate they should be used. (Snow, ice ...etc).

Previously, it wasn't law, but if you had an accident in snowy or icy conditions then most German insurances would have refused to pay out.
MT

You missed a bit:
That means, when you're going into Germany with summer tyres, and there is snow or ice on the road, [then]you're f*cked anyhow if something happens...

I thought the law was summed up as "tyres sufficient for the conditions", not necessarilly that you *had* to use winter tyres. e.g. you could argue that all-year tyres would be ok, but low-profile-boy-racer-summer-alloy would be a no-no.

...though obviously, winter tyres are un-questionably "sufficient".

(o.t. bring back spikes on tyres here - drove a car in Finland the other week, and boy do they help on snow!)

Sorry Woolleym,
I forgot about about the all-weather ones, so yes, you are probably correct.

But for sure, Summer tyres would not be considered suitable.
MT

The position remains unclear for everyone. The change says (as someone already pointed out) that your car should have tires 'appropriate to the weather conditions'. What this means is anyone's guess but it gives room for the insurance companies to tell you to take a hike if you have an accident in snow or icey conditions when your car still has summer tires on.
What happens when you have a crash in summer or in warm rainy conditions, and your car still has winter tires on, will be interesting since summer tires are usually better than winter tires in dry and in wet conditions. Winter tires are only better in snow and it doesn't matter a toss which tires you've got if the road surface is anything like it was about 2 weeks ago... Sauglatt.

The question that still crosses my mind is... should I take the "risk" and drive down from Holland to Munich next week on summer tyres with the advantage that it's completely free because it's a lease car (ok, maybe a 20-40 euro fine)... or should I spend money to rent a car that is equipped with winter tyres (which even some rental companies don't have!!)?

I'd be very pissed off if I'd go with a rental car and it turns out that the weather is fine...

Sadly the risk of you having to drive in snow conditions are very slim, that's slim as in unlikely, not clever or bad (poor Dutch/German joke) and let's face it, the Polizei have got better things to do than nick the odd tourist for driving with the wrong tyres on, as long as you don't go smashing into the locals!

Its my understanding that pretty well ALL rental cars have Summer tyres only.
Of course if you hire one, crash in snowy conditions and the Polizei catch you I expect that
YOU get the blame for having Summer tyres and not the rental company (I'd be sure that the
lawyers at the rental companies have checked this very carefully).

Ok, I drove the 800 km through Germany and back again on summer tyres, but nothing was wrong about it... I even noticed that a lot of the Germans (and the Dutch people with their caravan's) didn't have the winter tyres as well...

You were lucky. Had you tried the same trick this time last year you would have found it a lot more exciting.