Bavarian government wants to eavesdrop Skype calls

Wikileaks released on Friday two scanned documents relating to activities of the Bavarian police, Ministry of Justice, and the Prosecution Office in intercepting Skype calls.

Apparently Bavarian officials have been making enquiries about how to eavesdrop on Skype users. They contacted Digitask, a German company in Hesse. Digitask returned with an offer, dated September 4th 2007, that introduces the so-called "Skype Capture Unit".

In a nutshell: Malware is installed onto a target machine. Skype calls are then routed via an anonymous proxy which streams the data to a recording station.

While this is technically possible, the problem is how to get the eavesdropping software onto the target computer. This would require either physical access to the computer by the police, or the opening of a trojan email attachment by the computer's owner.

Read more:

• Skype and the Bavarian trojan in the middle (Wikileaks)
• The Bavarian intercept proves Skype is secure (Skype Journal)

That doesn't bother me so much as this bit:


OMG!!!

Weird though, DigiTask's website is pretty unsophisticated. Maybe even low profile.

And it's the Piratenpartei who claims to have gotten these documents in the first place... since removed from their website (!), but heise reported it, and that appears to be where wikileaks picked it up, and then it went to that skypejournal blog.

The reason they want to install this spyware is because they can't decypher Skype's encryption and want to get to the data before it gets encrypted.

This is Quatsch! And that is illegal to eavesdrop that way and invade someone's privacy. My guess is that they would be using some sophisticated IDS system (Intrusion Detection System) to tap and interpret whats going on. This IDS can be some special hardware or software and they can probably implement that in a number of ways. Ofcourse, nothing will be disclosed by them in a proper way and thats how it works!

And did you see that it apparently doesn't yet work with Windows Vista? And IE only up to 6? Just use any operating system other than Windows 2000 or XP and you should be fine...

Not with a warrant.

I knew having a Mac was a good idea!

I just like the idea of getting the spyware on there using trojan e-mails. What spam would a terrorist click on exactly?

"Enlarge your bombs in just 30 days!"

FLOLOTD™

4n+hraX, Sar!n, Ur4n!UM

I started by writing down some website names that perhaps terrorists would click on.

Had to delete them, it got a little offensive.

The german government have got a thing for wanting to know what people are up to. What is with them at the moment.

Are german poeple just more willing to go along with this kind of stuff?

Yeah, good luck to them getting the trojan on my machine at home

Don't you believe it MrMosh!

When the police or spooks bug your home or tap your home they are not obliged to tell you.
If however they STOP doing so becasue there is no evidence, no crime etc. they HAVE to inform you and will do so.

This was reported in the newspaper taz in the last few weeks regarding the G8 protests last year and they reckon there are a lot more letters to go out.
There were people who had no idea they were being actively bugged.

They are in and out in a couple of minutes and if the nosy neighbour stops them, they are just "from the hausmeister cos your hot water was broken etc".

Funny, everyday german co-workers complain about america losing freedom...

There ARE issues about America losing freedom but what's happening in Germany (and elsewhere) is parallel to that.
Erosions to civil liberties happen now that people wouldn't have accepted 10 years ago.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, MT, but what specifically has been eroded in the past decade?

Our hausmeister wouldn't hesitate for a second to open our door for the cops. We call the horrible bitch the "Stasi". As for our landlords who freely let themselves in and out, they're more old school so we've dubbed them the "Gestapo".

More CCTV
More detention without trial
More phonetapping, bugging, information gathering, computer related surveillance.
Less freedom of assembly.

etc etc are all erosions of our civil rights.

People also have the right not to be blown up on the train to work or on an aeroplane but plenty of politicians of all hues are rubbing their hands at TWAT becasue it is a chance for them to roll back in a few years liberties we have long cherished.

Hmmm I've got a short list:

1) The government is allowed to seize any property at any time with the only justification being the promise of future economic well-being. In otherwords, large corporations no longer have to compete in a fair market for real estate. Walmart simply has to say: "we'll buy your house for X" and if you think X is to low, you can't refuse since they'll just have the government take it

2) The Supreme court ruled that the Federal government has regulatory power over absolutely everything, because in their view the commerce clause of the constitution applies to anything which could conceivably be sold across state lines. The specific case they used was that of medical marijuana

3) Jose Padilla was an American citizen, held as an enemy combatant without access to the criminal courts.

4) Citizens of other countries have been detained in the US and flown to other countries for torture.

Its nothing new, you have a situation, you do nothing (take violent crime for example).

After a few years of media reports of how bad the situation is, people are jumpy, even though the police and other groups are saying the problem is actualy better.

At the same time, you have hamstrung your police in red tape, proceedure and PC concerns, cut their funding and as such pretty much erroded peoples trust in the police to do their job and as such no one believes the police. They are just saying its better to hide the fact that they are not doing their job.

Now, as the new generation have grown up, they think they are untouchable as not only have you pretty much stopped the system dealing with them, you also stop the public dealing with them.

Next you remove the right to silence and hanging around with more than a few other people by adding it onto another bill of parlament (as this will help).

You put cameras up everywhere which makes people feel safe and it does help a little, as the police now have evidence they can get easily.

If things do not go to well, lets say, people are not going for your ID card scheme you need other reasons. We have terrorism. Its a tricky topic and a potantialy dangerious one. The government say it will help against crime and terrorism, all terrorists to date would have had legal cards however.

In the UK, who has killed more people? The IRA/loyalist groups or foreign groups?

Our style of government is about being in power. That means you need votes. Public opinion on issues is a resource to gain votes. You do not use it all at once.

Any government that came in and solved the problems we have would get 1, 2 perhaps 3 more terms? If you could, would you make a candle that burned for a very, very long time or would you keep making the normal ones that burned juts a little bit longer than your competitors? Just keeping ahead of the competition and maybe staying in power?

Are we being herded into a society where we gladly accept this kind of measure?

Here's a thought; don't talk about illegal things, don't DO illegal things, don't watch kiddy-pr0n, don't blow people up, don't plan attacks on governments, don't deal drugs, don't hire 'hitmen', don't murder anyone, don't rob any banks, don't embezel (sp) money from your company, bla bla bla bla the list goes on.

Just don't do stupid shit and you'll have nothing to worry about. They aren't planning on monitoring EVERYONE'S conversations, just those that they are investigating for illegal or suspected illegal activities. Trust me, no one is interested in your fetish or sexual orientation over the internet. It's all about catching the bad guys and stopping innocent people from getting hurt.

People keep screaming and crying about how their civil liberties or rights have been hindered. Ya know what? I haven't noticed a damn thing. None of my rights have been violated. I don't feel any pressure from the government. I wonder why that is? Oh, wait a minute... I'm not a criminal Why should I really care if some scumbag's "rights" are being violated? Did said scumbag care about the "rights" of his victims to LIVE? Throw the bastard in a hole somewhere for the next 100 years. Better yet, let's save some money. 9mm rounds are about $0.02 each.

Not exactly. It's all about stopping who the government considers to be "the bad guys". Quite often that is just who they find threatening.


News flash: American male between the age of 35-45 doesn't feel his civil liberties are being violated. You might have noticed... it has never sucked to be in that demographic in America (I'm going out on a limb and presuming you're white)

Civil Liberties exist in a Democracy to protect the rights of minorities. Try asking a Muslim if they "haven't noticed a damn thing". This, of course is laughable additionally, because specific provisions in the Patriot act prevent you from being notified of investigations done using the Patriot Act. So of course you "haven't noticed a damn thing"... you couldn't possibly have if everyone else is under a gag order.

Edit: Amazing how quickly people forget

Edit: things just keep coming to mind

Don't be so sure.

'Extreme' porn proposals spark row

Yep, you caught me. I'm an American white male between 35-45 years old that despises criminals. I must be evil, I know. But I still just can't seem to get that fuzzy "caring" feeling deep inside whenever I hear of some scumbag killing or raping someone. Should the guy they just arrested for trying to arrange sex with a 13 year old girl cry about his civil liberties being violated? After all, I'm sure it was a trap (entrapment). I don't know his specifics, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speculate that he was also a white American male between 35-45. In my demographic. In his case, don't waste the $0.02 for a 9mm round. It's too much fun to watch a pedophile go to prison.

Sorry TFL, your links are all too old to have any bearing on the current world. If you haven't noticed, the world has changed since the 70s.

Odenwalder... you are completely missing the point. The point isn't that people want civil liberties because they don't want to be caught, or because they don't want to see criminals put behind bars.

People want civil liberties because they want an open transparent system of justice for those that are caught. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Your statements basically amount to: "I don't understand why we have trials for people which are obviously guilty". Well, the only answer for that is the obivous: duh. We don't have trials because we think the guy who was caught red handed with child porn is innocent. Rather we have trials for everyone because that is the only way to ensure justice for everyone.

My links are profoundly relevant, because all throughout history people have said exactly what your are saying now, with exactly the same consequences. The pattern is always the same: people in the comfortable majority don't feel they will be bothered by the government if it is given more and more power, because they won't be... people on the fringes suffer for it.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

There is quite a big difference between VOIP phone tapping and the right to a trial. As usual, you attempt to put words in the mouths of others. I never said that the rights given by the Constitution should be violated. I simply said DON'T BE A FUCKING CRIMINAL and you don't have anything to worry about with the VOIP phone tapping. As it stands now, a court order, signed by a sitting judge, is required to perform a phone tap. This would not change with VOIP phone tapping. And this is for GERMANY anyway. Why the hell bring up US civil liberty shit? Hell, not even all of Germany... just Bavaria. So preach all you want about MLK Jr or Lennon or any other US 1960s / 1970s civil rights bla bla you want. That has ZERO bearing on what this topic is about.

And to add to all of this, I never said that my rights as an American in America were violated. I am an American living in Germany and have never once had my rights violated. I wonder why that is? Oh wait, I'm not a criminal! Not in American, not in Germany, nowhere. Get a clue, TFL.

I'm sorry, if you want to talk specifically about Skype, that's fine. You are the one who broadened the conversation however:

I also included a link to a Canadian incident you might note. I just happen to be more familiar with these aspects. I think the things I'm talking about are pretty universal for governments however, so that is why we need to be guarded about them.

If you'd rather, I can see if I can find instances in the local history where middle aged white males didn't notice or mind infringements on civil liberties while life was made unpleasant for minority populations.

Coming back to the skype thing... I don't have a problem with Skype tapping per say. As long as it is done in an above-the-board and transparent manner with oversight of various government bodies and the normal required paperwork (warrants and whatever that may be)... then I don't really have a problem with it.

My specific gripe was with your "It doesn't effect me and it only coddles people I know are guilty" attitude. Which has been shown to be false throughout history.

Being continually stopped in your car by the police and breatherlized when you have done nothing wrong other than just happened to be there. Being in a night club and the police raiding, forcing you to strip and shining torches up your anus. Having your phone tapped or calls intercepted and recorded and automatically scanned. Having same done for your emails.
All these above are an infringment on civil liberties and it doesn't happen in some other countries to the extent that it happens here in Munich.
I know that I have nothing to fear as I don't drink and drive but when I see those stupid idiots pulling me over I would just love to run them over.
Especially when you get the gunho type ones that stand behing your car in your blind spot with their hand on their gun covering the pig that is questioning you.

No, my attitude is quite clearly "if you are not guilty (or conducting illegal activities), you have nothing to worry about". I don't know if I can break it down to a more basic form so you can understand it.

How very American of you... no wait, the opposite of that.

This attitude is only a shade away from what I described anyway, and has also been shown to be false numerous times.

Well, considering how much the British authorities are apparently spying on British citizens going about their legitimate business you should really use Skype for every call to Britain.

Here's a scenario for your feeble mind. I really hope you can understand it.

Random_Person_01 is suspected of money laundering for "X" illegal crime syndicate. The FBI goes to Sitting_Judge_01 and asks for a warrant based on "some legitimate evidence". Judge grants warrant for a phone tap for 30 days. FBI taps said suspects phone for 30 days and monitors all calls in & out. During those 30 days, they find out that this is just an average person and they had made a mistake. The tap is halted and all files and recordings are destroyed. No harm, no foul. The FBI moves on to another case and Random_Person_01 goes on with his life.

Another twist of the same story:
During the 30 day phone tap, the FBI finds out that this person is not conducting money laundering for "X" illegal crime syndicate. But they DO find out that this person is making drug deals, for personal use, over the phone. The FBI halts the wire tap and all files & recordings are destroyed. All information of the drug deals are forgotten because the warrant was not issued for that purpose. That would constitute an illegal search and be a violation of The Constitution. No harm, no foul.

And a final twist:
During the 30 day phone tap, enough viable evidence is collected containing names, dates, amounts, locations, and procedures. The FBI takes that information to higher levels, warrants are issued for arrests, and the "bad guys" are caught. The world is a safer place, for a while. Those "bad guys" still have to go on trial for the crimes that they allegedly committed. But in order to get the EVIDENCE, phone taps were needed.

Quite frankly, your oppinion of my attitude is worth about as much to me as mouse poo. The fact is, there is no violation of civil rights or liberties. Sure, there may be some invasion of privacy. But those are under a warrant from the court. And when there is no evidence found, everything is (or should be) destroyed. No files are maintained on the individual. There are crimes stopped every day based on these types of actions. Hate crimes, racially motivated crimes, terrorist activities, and much more. While you may shake your fist at "the man" for conducting these types of activities, I thank "the man" for making the world a better and safer place.

Next you'll be telling me that I'd be wrong and in violation of someone's "civil rights" if I shot and killed a knife weilding intruder in my home with my registered weapon. Cry me a river.

Odenwalder... no one is complaining about civil liberties for the situations you mention. They complain when the things you say should happen... don't.

When warrants aren't used
When records aren't destroyed
When the monitoring isn't based on suspicion of a crime.

The fact that you even mention judges and warrants shows you don't really believe what you said. After all, if you aren't doing anything wrong, what do you have to fear from warrantless searches and invasion of privacy by unaccountable groups?

PS. You example about self defense for an intruder is indeed apt, as those doing nothing wrong certainly do have something to fear. (well, if they aren't white at least)

Incorrect!

Research Project Echelon and you may find some correction to your fallacies.


How fucking gullible are you?

No one cries until it affects them... this will affect you... maybe not quite yet but it's coming.

"The Man" ain't protecting shit! "The Man" is providing a friendly environment for corporate interests at the expense of the individual and family unit.

These counterbalances are there for a reason. If you believe these counterbalances are being removed to protect you, then it is you sir who needs a reality check.

How about a scenario for you...

Govt attains office and removes all major civil liberties, individual protection and counterbalances under the guise of protecting you from an imminent threat...
You agree and say "That's great... they do some good work!"
At some point you realise the reasoning was nothing but a ruse and decide this govt is actually acting against the public interest and needs to be removed via the correct channels...
After some research you find the correct channels have been removed...

What is your next move. Do you work through subvert channels thereby becoming the very definition of the terrorist that the corrupt government has set out.

Or do you sit back and say OK...

Is it conceivable that these measures are more for societal control as opposed to the protection of the society?

Is it conceivable???...

All of your "what if"s don't amount to anything. You can run around in fear all you want, I will not. Your conspiracy theories are just that, theories. They add up to exactly shit. Nothing. Cry all you like, it doesn't bother me a bit. Go on your little tantrums if it makes you feel better.

And PLEASE don't throw the whole Cory Maye bullshit. That IDIOT shot a cop serving a warrant. The police identified themselves as police when entering his apartment. He had NO IDEA what was going on and when in shooting. A fucking moron, thank you very much. One who keeps his .380 in his daughter's room? Oh yeah, that's a prominent member of society, right there.

And you can get off the whole "blacks are being persecuted" bullshit. It doesn't work on me, sorry. We each make our own destiny. If someone chooses to stay in school, get an education, and become an active member in society, good things will happen. REGARDLESS of color. If someone chooses to be a fucking moron all their life, then their life will take a different path. REGARDLESS of color. So don't spew your activist bullshit. It's annoying and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

Is it conceivable???...

Not in my mind. But who knows what goes on in the mind of conspiracy theorists.

Well Odenwalder, your post stand on itself really. I don't need to write anything else. You have shown yourself to be utterly uninformed, and damned determined to stay that way.

If you haven't heard about the warrantless wiretapping with regards to the US war on terror then there isn't really much that can be done for you. (hell, even the president himself has news conferences on this, where have you been exactly?)

Your post speaks volumes for itself about your cognitive ability, or lack thereof.

As I've stated repeatedly, I don't have a problem with wiretapping at all, and I just want it to be done within the legal confines of judges, warrants, and public scrutiny. I took issue specifically with your abstract idea that anything is permissible because people following the law have nothing to fear.

I'm well aware of the blanket wire tap for the war on terror. Do you, as a normal citizen, have anything to fear? Nope. Why? Because (1) there is a super slim chance of you ever being tap'd & (2) if you were, for some odd reason, tap'd and nothing was found, you would be forgotten. What's the big deal? Do you know the specifics of the blanket wire tap? They can't use anything not related to the "war on terror" that you may say against you. So if they are listening and you call your buddy up and ask to buy 10oz of weed, they can't do shit about it. "Oh, but they could be listening!". Horseshit. You fail to realise that they will not investigate people unless they have probable cause.

I'm also well aware of Echelon. And it does not record entire conversations for storage. Without going into too much detail, it will save a call to a cache for the duration of the call and if one of the "keywords" is mentioned in the call, a technician will be alerted and the context examined. If it was a false alarm, the call will be purged from the cache. If it was an actual alert, the call will be saved to a file and location protocols will be intiated. Again, what do you as a normal citizen have to fear? Not a damn thing.

Bottom line here, folks: Normal, law abiding citizens have nothing to worry about. Go save the polar bears or something that really may make a difference to you. You're just banging your head against the wall for nothing here.

Bottom line here Odenwalder: History has proven you wrong repeatedly. Each time government is given unaccountable power, it has been abused. It has repeatedly happened in the past, and will continue to happen in the future as long as people like you remain complacent.

And I'll add, the only reason you remain so willing to trust the government is simply because you belong to a group which never has a problem with governments no matter how much power they have: the majority. To be unable to see how (for instance) a muslim in the US might have a problem with blanket warrantless wiretapping shows a real lack of empathy and understanding.


Please keep posting, you continue to show your lack of sophistication and education.

That's all for me, I've heard everything you've said, a thousand times over, nothing of interest here... adios

I'm complacent because ... uhhh, I don't get it. Because I'm not a pussy and I have no problem with the government listening in on a few calls if it helps keep another terrorist attack from happening? Well fuck me runnin'. I guess I'm complacent, then. But if I'm complacent ...

Oh, and yes... I mispelled "moot". OH NO !!! I'm gonna go to HELL !! Thank you, grammar pussy... errr, I mean police, for correcting me. And notice, that before you even had your post posted, I had changed that line anyway. Stop being such a cock and get a life.

They do it already... Nothing was said about storing the data... But they do monitor all electronic communications already...
Your point above is completely wrong!!!

These measures were justified in exactly the same manner by the nazi's in the 30 and 40's...

Not learning much are you.

These are not conspiracy theories ya fuckin doey prick, they're facts!

Since these terrorists apparently have the imaginary skills to outsmart the entire US govt, military and intelligence apparatus, I'd say they would probably have enough imaginary skills to avoid using all unsecured forms of communication...

So taking the logical next step... If the terrorists aren't using these insecure forms of communication because they're apparently intelligent and resourceful enough to outsmart the entire US intelligence, military and executive branches, then perhaps the only ones being monitored are actually the ordinary citizens...

Yes trust the govt... they have never in the distant past or recent history actually acted against the interests of the populace!

From one white guy to another, you're completely wrong.

One must be extremely naive to think that, in any country, each person actually has an equal shot at the things you listed above. Not to mention that the government is by default on ones' side and they have absolutely nothing to worry about.

It is also possible that someone can stay in school, get an education, and become an active member of society, and still be a moron. Just hopefully not a "fucking moron", as we don't need any more of them.

No, I mean good luck to them trying to get past the firewall and the blocked ports and install a trojan on my computer without my knowledge. Be it a windows or OSX machine, I highly doubt they will manage without me noticing.

I'm the "doey prick" when you're the one comparing the USA of 2008 to the Nazis of 1930/1940? Uh, ok. If that's the way you see it. I, on the other hand, see the exact opposite.

Odenwalder, you are an aggro one, oder? Who here compared the US 2008 to the Nazi Germany? Quote your posts before you rip someone's head off, man. So that it's completely obvious that you are the one taking it out of context.

(and there are many similarities, but that's a mute point)

This was an interesting thread until Odenwalder started in with the flameage. I can't imagine him carrying on like this in person.

He was referring to me...

and I'm just calling it as i see it.

further to the point... The US was only mentioned as a benchmark against which to compare the "Terrorist's" imaginary skills...

I stated that the reasoning being used (which applies to most 1st world govts) is very similar to Germany in the 30's and 40's...

So sorry that I confused you. However, had you read at least a few posts above mine you would see what I was replying to. I'll ensure, in the future, that I make everything as easy for you as possible. I'd sure hate for you to have to hurt yourself and think, oder?

And no, I don't "carry on like this in person" because I don't surround myself with conspiracy theorists, leftists, or anti-Americans (or militant non-smokers or generally idiots in any form). So don't ya'll fret, I highly doubt you'll wind up in my social circle. Thank heaven for small favors

Although I may agree at times that extra measures are needed to combat terrorism it is irresponcible for the public to go along with anything the authorities say. They work for us remember.

Although I have nothing to fear if I have done nothing wrong the law says the authorities must have cause to suspect me before they can investigate/stop me. This is the fact that I as an individual am innocent until proven guitly.

To assume i have nothing to fear if I have done nothing wrong infers it is ok to stop me. If it is ok to stop me without reason, just to check, this infers I am not in fact innocent until proven guilty, I am potentialy guilty until the search/check proves my innocence.

Being from a country that has had problem with terrorism in the past I can see that extra measures would have perhaps stopped some attacks. However would this then mean all irish poeple entering mainland britain could searched, checked etc? This would ineffect say 'you are in fact potential terrorist and we are treating you as such'.

How long before we start locking up potantial terrorists while they are being investigated. The government could either just change the legal rights of these people or just place the prison elsewhere (as has been done) so that the legal rights of detainees does not come under the countries laws.

When thinking about any loss in rights it is short sighted to only look at today or maybe tomorrow. You have to look many years forward, I can see my government today, 20 years down the line however...

Exactly. once a law is passed there is virtually no turning back. I don't want to be surveilled or checked up on all the time. Not because I'm necessarily doing something wrong, but because I don't trust my personal information going somewhere other than where I intend it to.

Suppose all of your phone calls, emails, and net activity are being logged into some database. Then -- oops! -- it's hacked, and all your info is now in the hands of someone less benevolent than the government (ie terrorists).

Suppose the shit does hit the fan and we're back to the 1930s again. How would you feel then, knowing that all this info is there to be used against you? Because it doesn't ever really "get destroyed."